Apistos

[angel]

Again, it's not the black diamond sand raising your Ph. Coal is inert. It's something else.

[angel]

The mirrored sounds nice.

[angel]

No it wasn't. But it's only fair to let you know when something is inert so there can be another cause found. Water out of the tap will not remain the same Ph once in the tank. Maybe Joe will be on later and be able to explain that more.
As far as what they'd like, low to neutral Ph, since they're New Worlds. These types of fish do show breeding behaviors in higher Ph and hardness amounts, but I haven't had success yet with them yet. That of course means nothing. But there are things you can do to lower the Ph should it become a problem without using Ph lowering chemicals. JD showed us some blackwater extract he was making, and some leaves. I can't think of what they're called right now but they're also used for bettas.

[angel]

I'm unsure. I've not tried putting any material into a tank. That'd be best answered by someone else. But if you've got a gravel that softens the water that can't really cause drastic Ph spikes and drops I'd think so it would have to be better than chemicals.

[jgentry]

Jan 26, 2010 14:21:15 GMT -6 bunnie1978 said:

I wonder about using the water softening gravel, which lowers the PH to really low numbers, which I've read are ok, and then using the sand just in the front? I also have an underground filter that came with it, but if I use that I'll have to put something between it and the sand, and it would really only be useful for water movement. What about cheesecloth? That's safe inside the tank, right?

I'm not sure what you are talking about with PH lowering gravel. There is no gravel that consistantly lowers your PH. The only way that you are going to get any consitant results for lowering PH is to us RO water. You can change the PH as needed with RO water. Gravel isn't going to do anything to lower the PH of our hard water. Even if it did lower your PH that would be a terrible thing. Everytime you did a water change the PH would jump back up. Making for a lot of stress and most likely dead apisto's.

Cacatuoides are by far the toughest Apisto. They actually seem to like water that is a little harder and will breed in it with no issues. The Trifaciata are not nearly as tough or adaptable. Not the wimpiest by any means but far from durable in my opinion. You do not need to mix them in the same tank. You will not have nearly enough territory for both to setup space in the tank. One of the pairs will end up dominating and eventually killing the others. I would either plan a larger tank or put them in seperate tanks. Both are very pretty fish.

Hope that helps,
J.D.

[angel]

You make a good point, JD. Not knowing everything there is to know about gravel I wasn't going to dispute a gravel existing that could lower Ph but never really thought about water change day. That would spike the Ph back up. This is where it's great to have a forum to talk it all out.

[jgentry]

New products hit the market everyday and I certainly do not keep up with them so there could be a new product the does lower the PH. I'm not aware of it though.

I certainly do not always think of everything when setting up a tank and it is good to have a place to discuss and debate and all learn from each other .

[jgentry]

One other thing that I forgot to mention is that I would highly recommend you age your water if you are not going to go the RO route. Apisto's much like discus thrive on consistancy. So whenever you are plannign a water change you need aerate the water over night. I use a large coated garbage can and a small air pump and heater.

Be sure to post pictures once you get them. Did he say which cacatuiodes strain you are getting?

[angel]

Although this article mentions the wide fluctuations of Ph in a planted aquarium, it doesn't ever mention that being the case in nature. And I can see where it might not be, because in nature there's a LOT more water and levels change more slowly in more water, plus water is moving all the time for the most part. However, it is a great article and says what to do to keep Ph in check because this can kill fish if not handled properly, but will work fine if a few steps are taken.
www.ehow.com/about_5079386_effect-aquarium-plants-ph.html

[jgentry]

Jan 26, 2010 17:56:10 GMT -6 bunnie1978 said:

My experience with water changes with the fish I've kept so far are that the only change that seems to cause stress is temperature change. My Cardinal tetras are especially sensitive to temperature change and they let me know quickly if the temp is off.. the red stripe fades out if they are stressed in any way. They make a great LED indicator light in the aquarium!
With the day/night cycle of plants in the aquarium (and in nature) there can be a wide fluctuation of PH in a 24 hour period also, since they are producing oxygen only during the day.

Triple reds are stunning. Great choice in fish!!!!

Fish in nature do not go through these wide changes in PH that you mention. At least not in the amazon were your apisto's originated. I never had issues keeping my planted tanks stable PH wise. Unstable PH will kill these fish so make sure you keep it consistant. But I never ran CO2 at night either. Stability and consistancy is the key with any delicate fish. I'm not sure about the gravel you mentioned. Clay isn't going to remove anything or lower the PH. Even if it did everytime you did a water change it would fluctuate dramatically. I can tell you that this would be extremely stressfull to any fish. I think there is something wrong with your test kit if it is reading below 6.0 because our tap water is not going that low without being dramtically altered. Plus if you have cardinal tetras and you changed the water in a tank the was 6.o with our tap water it would shock them for sure. I'm not there or reading your test kit so stranger things can happen but I think it might be reading incorrectly or it is the CO2 that is lowering your and not the substrate.

My planted tanks always stayed around 7.2 with CO2 injection and heavy planting. This is with aged water. I could get it to around 6.8 using RO water with out any altering it, but not any lower. Our water it just to hard to change like that.

[jgentry]

Forgot to mention, do not do water changes with water from your other tanks. You risk spreading your issues around. Also the water will never be as clean as fresh water. I do 50% on all of my tanks every week with fresh tap water. The discus get aged tap water to prevent PH changes. Everything else gets straight fresh tap water. Anything else will get spread issues around and eventually lead to something bad.

Jump starting your cycle is a good idea though. Just use a scoop of gravel from one of your established tanks.

[angel]

We didn't get a reading of 6.6 on your tap water. I'd question whether you got a faulty test.

[angel]

I like the bubbles too .George has a cool bubble setup. Her hoses with small holes that make tiny bubbles here and there.
Do you remember what the one plant is called that I've got here with the tiny delicate leaves? I do like that plant.

[jgentry]

Jan 26, 2010 19:42:02 GMT -6 bunnie1978 said:

Thanks for all the input. I'm surprised you could maintain such a high PH value even with plants. I have around 6.6 out of the tap and 6.6 is about what my display is with some fluctuations for the day/night cycle like I mentioned before.

Apistos will be going into a low maintance/moderate light planted tank. I've decided on some of the plant species, but not all. I still have to decide on at least one fast growing stem. I'm thinking Didiplis Diandra. I'm running a test with it to see if it grows in high light/no CO2.

I still haven't decided on the background though, and I need to do that tomorrow. Can't wait any longer if I want to have everything up and running for at least a few days when the fish get here.

I just did a W/C on my display. This is my favorite thing... all the bubbles!! Pretty bubbles, making the atmosphere better!

I have always liked either a black backgorund or light blue. Some fish tend to wash out on a black background but apisto's shouldn't. That's just a personal preference so you just need to do what you think will look the best for your tank. I don't like mirror backgrounds personally for cichlids becuase some fish will always attack there reflection and it can stress them out. Not always though. I have never seen it with apisto's though so you could try it and see if you have any issues if that is what you really want. Just have a backup plan incase the male keeps attacking it's reflection.

My water out of the tap is 7.4 and pretty hard. TDS of around 220. After aging it is about 7.1 Water that hard is not going to drop in PH. To much hardness and buffering from all the limestone around here. Any water coming from the cumberland watershed is going to be the same. You can raise the PH real easy for saltwater of africans but it is not easy to lower. Your water could be coming from a different supply though.